Emma: Hello, in this week's episode of midlife AF, I am talking to the wonderful Victoria Vanstone. Victoria has been around in this space for quite a few years. And when I first stopped drinking, she was a bit of a celebrity because there weren't many people in Australia, speaking out, and having a presence on alcohol free living. And so Vic, as a community called Cuppa, which I am active in and often put meetings and things on for events that I'm hosting with a toxicity. She runs a podcast, which is amazing, and lots of my clients listen to and love it. I love the Sober Awkward, it's really down to earth and funny, Vic. Also, I think she started this whole thing with a blog called Drunk Mummy Sober Mummy. And that is a website as well. So she's available at all those different places. And I'll put all the links to those in the shownotes. But she's wonderful. I love her. And I met her in real life this last year. In this episode, we talk about social awkwardness, we talk about being responsible for everybody else's experience, which is very, very common in people who are alcohol free, because we are often very sensitive people. And as gamma latte says sensitivity is one of the key components in feeling life impacts us in a bigger way. And often we drink to get away from there. We talk about emotional sobriety. And that's the sort of concept that we are as emotionally evolved or developed as the years that we started to use a coping mechanism like alcohol to manage our emotional experience. And we talk about abandoning ourselves and our vulnerability.
And I think my greatest quote that I've had on the podcast so far is, “Don't give a party girl a line of coke. Give her a cuddle,” which I love. We talk about boundaries. We talk about promiscuity and abandoning ourselves. So I think you're gonna love this episode, as much as I do..
Emma: Thank you so much for coming in and joining me and giving up your frying in the sun.
Victoria: Yeah, it was about time.
Emma: So Vic, I'll get Vic to introduce herself, but for me, Vic is a real pioneer in the alcohol free space. To me, when I stopped drinking, there weren't many Aussies out there doing a lot, or making a lot of noise. And Vic was one of those people. Do you want to tell a little bit about your background Vic, and we can go from there.
Victoria: Yeah, so I am 45 and I gave up drinking just after my 40th birthday. I started writing about giving up drinking on the day that I gave up. I just started making a diary because I felt like the only person in the world that ever had this mid-range binge drinking habit. There was anyone else like me. So I felt like it was quite important to write down exactly what I was going through and everything else. So, yeah, I started writing a diary which turned into my blog, which turned into my Sober Awkward podcast, which has now turned into my book. So it's just a pattern that's developed with my sobriety. I always felt like I could write, but it's since my brain started working again. That's all that sort of started to happen for me. So, yeah, I was a binge drinker, party girl who had to look inwards and question my relationship with alcohol after I had children, because, of course, then I had a consequence. And yeah, and now here I am, five years sober in March.
Emma: Amazing. Congratulations, my friend. That's absolutely fantastic. I met Vic for the first time in real life. Not too long ago, actually, in Canberra.
Victoria: We had a lovely time.
Emma: Yeah, we had a beautiful time with a lot of the alcohol free community, kind of coaches and community owners and people actually working in the mental health space. And it was just a really, really great experience. It was lovely hanging out with people with lived experience like ourselves, of struggling with alcohol and being all together in a space.
Victoria It was lovely to meet everybody. And it was exciting to meet Shanna who I hadn't met before. I've always had a relationship with her online, like with most people there. It was just lovely to hook up with these other sober women. And I guess, like our version of going down the pub.
Emma: Yes. Yeah. Yeah,
Victoria: All it was over fizzy waters instead of beers, which was great.
Emma: And there's something and I felt this. And we always, we talked about this a lot in our community is that when you've stopped drinking, we get very quickly to the real stuff, you know, there's not so much like surface talk. And it's something so lovely about being with people who are going through something similar to yourself, or having the same frames of reference. But also, there's definitely something about being with people who are on a journey. And having to kind of deal with a lot of the reasons why they were drinking.
Victoria: My friend, Lisa, she will resonate with this. We went away for this women's weekend, which was 15 women that we had never met. And she will remember this moment very clearly when everybody had arrived. And there's 15 women who had never really met each other before. And you could see that we all felt very, very nervous. And I sort of looked at the moment and went “Look, this feeling here, everybody, this is why we drank, right? Let's revise it, this social awkwardness, this feeling of overwhelm, and us not knowing each other. But having this one connection is making us feel really nervous.” And luckily, the women that came away from the weekend are lovely, and Anita was a host for quiz nights. And we just ended up doing this quiz night and everybody had fun. And it was no different to whether you'd had alcohol or not. That question, of course, breaks the ice. Why are you here? What are you doing here? And that's, you know, like us when we went away. It's like that one question. All of our differences sort of melt away into the background, our jobs, our pasts and everything else. And all we're left with is connection over alcohol. And now that we've given up, it's actually one thing that we can bond over. Whereas where we bonded before, knowing what we were doing and being drunk and everything else. Now we can actually bond without alcohol even though it's just something we have in common, which I do find really fascinating.
Emma: Yeah, it is really interesting, isn't it? And I thought if I find it so interesting as well how every group of people that I speak to even though we all seem to be so uniquely different. There's such common humanity reasons why we drink that are really universal, I don't know what you think.
Victoria: Yeah, and it's beautiful, how everything else slips away that I find so inspiring that it just doesn't matter about anything else. So all you recognize in someone is their struggle, and you know that you’ve been there and you have empathy for them like they have you. And whether it's an extreme drinker or somebody that sits at the beginning of this vast spectrum, no matter who it is, that connection is enough to fulfill a beautiful, lifelong friendship, actually, because we've all been there. We know we've all had those moments where we wanted to change. And we know that we're all trying to do better. And therefore that is enough for us to thrive as people that can go on to have really meaningful relationships.
Emma: That's exactly right. That's exactly right. We get through the small talk pretty quickly. I find
Victoria: Yeah. I love that. I don't talk about the weather anymore. It does take time, like in sobriety. I mean, I didn't tell anyone, I was sober for the first 18 months because I wasn’t having any conversations without alcohol in my system. But as I felt confident and the alcohol built that sort of self assurance in me, I was able to understand that look, this is how it's supposed to be.
Emma: Yeah, yeah. It's that building that self assurance, isn't it, I think is such a big part of it all. Because we get out from drinking away like these little baby chicks with no feathers. That's kind of a really awful description. ALittle vulnerable thing. With no real idea of, you know, like how to, how to interact with people and how to, and we're just very fragile.
Victoria: Yeah, I describe it as the bright light of sobriety when you first get sober. And it does feel like you know, as I love your description, there actually is like a baby deer being born and learning how to walk so quickly. And like you're expected, like just to suddenly go out and socialize, and be somebody that you've never been before and be okay with it. And the fact is not okay, it's actually really daunting and really overwhelming. When I first went out and socialized, I remember feeling like I had one of those bright stage lights being held in my face. And I could almost, you know, feel every feeling and every emotion. You can feel your pumping in your neck and you feel like words are not coming out properly. I mean, you don't even recognize your own voice, which is a really strange repercussion from just giving up drinking. But I always describe it, as you know, when you see those videos online of kids getting cochlear implants. And a doctor puts the implant in and they're there with their mother and like Mommy loves you. And it's like, the most incredible thing and the child first can hear themselves. I know it's not quite as strong as that. But it feels like you can hear yourself and tune into the world for the very first time. But as you go along, that light starts to dim, and you're able to roll that light switch a little bit more than the dimmer button and decide when it's getting too much or too little, of course when your boundaries come by but it is overwhelming. And that is exactly why the podcast is called Sober Awkward is because yes, I have found those situations completely awful, because I didn't know who was my identity was somebody who was the life and soul of the party and took responsibility for the entire room when I entered which I realized, is ridiculous, that is a lot to take on board. But I will, every time practice makes perfect. And with every step, the next hour an extra 15 minutes out. It does get easier for sure.
Emma: Yeah, it's so interesting, because I've just come off a coaching call. I was doing a big group and group coaching call. And we were just talking about exactly this. We're talking about that sort of feeling of being you know, over responsibility and being so porous, that we feel, you know, everybody's experience around us and we take like you say taking responsibility for the room and so conditioned in us, isn't it that sort of trying to fix everybody trying to make everybody else okay. Yeah, and that becomes really deafening when we stop drinking because we kind of drink don't we to make that feeling go away. And then it becomes very deafening and then we have to sort of go Okay, so now I've got to realize that I'm actually not responsible for everybody and it's how do I how do I manage my way through life and I still like I went we went on holiday a few weeks ago and It came up really big for me again, I suddenly I was feeling everyone's stuff and yeah, feeling really responsible for situation and just that awkwardness that you're not, you know, you're witness to it all, aren't you?
Victoria: But I also think you, unfortunately, are very, very aware of your failures as well. So you've become, that's why it's all about this growth because you have a new connection with yourself where you are able to identify who you are and where you're going wrong. So therefore, there's a lot to deal with in the aftermath of alcohol. There's a lot of stuff to, to heal, and to learn, I think,
Emma: Yes, yes. Yes. I was listening to I think it was Laura McCowan podcast, and she was talking about emotional sobriety and this concept that, you know, almost the emotional years, developed as you were when you went into start drinking, which I know for you and I was very early, and everything becomes about us. And it's all very personal. And we get very upset and very offended and very, you know, and it's, you know, it's about developing ourselves as this kind of beast with skin on. So we're not just like, being reactive and taking everything into our, into our nervous system into our body.
Victoria: Yeah, I think so, like a history between especially party girls is like a history of giving ourselves away. Like abandoning not only means the bodies like with promiscuity, or, or that responsibility of taking care of everybodies, night. And it is like that we take off a layer of skin, which makes us vulnerable, therefore we drink. So it's really interesting to me, I was so interested in that. In that party, I often say now, like, don't give a party girl a line of coke, give her a cuddle, because I see it as something else. That's what I needed. And I realized that I was looking for that love in all the wrong places: in a boyfriend, in a bottle, in another destination because I traveled the world. And I was always looking for something. And it ended up that I didn't have anything left over for me, which then of course, caused me to drink more alcohol to fill that void. This has taken a lot of therapy to work on this.
Victoria: Look at that party girl persona and how we'd like oh, yeah, she's really fun. Like you're guaranteed a good night out with her. She's probably suffering. She's probably sleeping around. Like, that's not saying that in a judgmental way. I'm saying that was me. And I was giving myself away, in many ways. It was self destructive.
Emma: We're dancing so fucking hard, aren't me for somebody to sort of notice us and just like you're saying, Give us just like how I can I don't know how I can I go. And we found out a funny thing, didn't we? You and I both came from a similar place in England. Pretty close to each other.
Emma: It's so funny and so cool and so interesting as well that we've ended up here doing this. And I know I really wanted to talk about the importance of community and the importance of connection in our journeys. And I know very much through your work. I don't know if you might want to talk a little bit about the new community that you have put together and what the purpose of that is. Because of how important for both Vic and myself, community is in being alcohol free and in being happily alcohol free. Do you want to talk a little bit about that?
Victoria: Yeah, so I used to before I created the community, I would often get asked, Where do I go to get help? You know, and I could give a number to a local therapist or say go to this AA meeting or do all of these things. And I just kind of thought, well, what would I have wanted? What did I need for that? 18 months when I was alone in my sobriety, wondering what the bloody hell to do, because I didn't have any mates anymore. And I didn't fancy going out. Lucy and I, who used to be on the podcast with me on the Sober Awkward podcast, we created a free platform, I think it's important to say that it's free so anybody can just go on there and join. And it is just a way of creating peer to peer support. So it's basically Facebook or Instagram. But just people who are questioning their relationship with alcohol. So people go on there, they're still drinking, and they've just given up if they've had the worst hangover of their life, no matter where you sit. You're welcome. And it's just a really beautiful place.
There are events, so all of the members are able to meet for a couple of events. So obviously, we're trying to normalize meeting for a cup of tea. It's called the Cuppa Community. So that's just www.cuppa.community. And yeah, there's events on there to go to once a month, we have breakfast, there's dinners, there's walks, and all over the world. There's a few people doing things in England and in Canada. And it's just beautiful.
It's mostly women, actually. But we have got a few guys coming aboard. It's really hard to get to socialize the sober guys. They need a kick in the balls. Often. But yeah, so there's events on there, there's courses like you have your course on there. Lovely Geralyn has a course there. So if you want to delve deeper into sobriety and, and your reasons why you can get access to all of those and Williams Porter's course is on there and, and loads of stuff. And yeah, and it's just generally a place for you to share and get advice. Because if anyone puts a question on there, I'm struggling today or I don't know what to do about this, or my husband's still drinking or this, this and this. Yeah, there's always someone there who has an answer, which is just brilliant. And it's such a lovely place to hang out last year. I know we slag off Instagram and Facebook and everything. But it is help 24/7 if you use it the right way, I mean if you use it in the right way and things like this, it's like access to so much information. That is so cool. When I first got sober I started my Instagram account. I did Drunk Mummy, Sober mummy and I followed only sobriety accounts. And I found that just logging onto that one day, even if it was just a quote, or somebody's before and after picture, I could just go “I'm feeling a bit sick now”. And I just, oh, okay, somebody else has felt like this. It's quite normal. And that's what it is. It's normalizing sobriety by just understanding that there are more people out there that are going to issue and that is liberating on some days.
Emma: I totally agree with you, I had exactly the same experience with social media, I thought it was so helpful for my journey. And this is you know, this concept and we talked about this a lot. But you know, we're all fundamentally the same with the same issues, the same problems, but we all think we're alone and there's something wrong with us. And it's what the beauty of these communities like Vic has created that allow everybody to share what I call your you know, your ‘soft furry tummy’ and then other people couldn't you know, like I got a soft furry tummy too! It's like we're the same, you know, we've all got the same problems and same issues and same reasons why we drink.
Victoria: Have you ever seen that program called Intervention? So on that is a perfect example of like, the sobriety story, it's like a person's normal childhood. They go back and and usually something happens, whether it's some sort of assault or family issue, or something happens normally. And then the person comes of age and descends into sort of an addiction and then the family helps them. And then it's the aftermath and how they, how they, you know, become free from their addiction. And I think that's it. That's the story of addiction, whether it's whether it's, you know, relative to someone else's or not theirs, whether our stories are similar or not, it's that same thing again, it's like the story, the basics, or is the same, and how we've been born without it, and then we end up with it and then have to get over it. And I just think it's such a common thread with everybody that I've met on this scene. It's like, that's the connection is so similar, no matter the drug, in fact. Even one of the most fascinating weekends away was some of the most heartbreaking stories where the gamblers, yes, yeah, didn't realize the compassion I had for those people. It was exactly, they could not stop even though they weren't imbibing anything. It was like, compulsion within them, had made them lose everything, it was so tragic and severe, I was so shocked by those stories. It was really fascinating.
It's important to get yourself out there in this game, and not stay at home, worried that you're the only person that's ever stopped drinking. Because that's the only way you're going to meet people that are like you, and whether it's you're going to your same pub and club that you used to go to, though I don't recommend that. I recommend trying new things, meeting new people, getting new hobbies, because drinking was your hobby, drinking my whole hobby. And now without that hobby anymore, I need to find people with other hobbies.
Emma: Yeah. That's right. That's right. That's exactly it. That's exactly it. It's really interesting. I was talking to a group just now. And they were talking about, you know, going out for dinner and going out to, you know, still going to the same places that they were going. There's this kind of, you know, I think again, kind of comes down to this very female idea that we can't take up space, we can't ask for what we want. And so instead of saying, actually, I'd rather meet you for breakfast, or I'd rather get you a coffee, we just go along with things because we don't want to kind of cause problems. We don't want to, you know, make anybody else feel uncomfortable. And yet we put ourselves in situations that aren't good for us and don't feel good for us. And again, I think this journey is like what we've been talking about as we go through, it's that sort of standing in and doing those really scary things like speaking up for yourself and not abandoning yourself and saying, “Actually, yeah, I'd rather I'd rather meet you for a cup of coffee, or can we do something else?” We'll probably go for a walk or, yeah, it takes a bit of guts and a bit of awkwardness and a bit of courage, doesn't it?
Victoria: Yeah. And also, I didn't know I didn't know what a boundary was. They were not existent in my life. And I have an understanding of what they are and when I need to put them up, and that is saying things I know are going to make me act full of anxiety and saying ‘no’ to going to do things where people are going to be heavily drinking. I still hover the mouse over a “going” icon on my Facebook page to wine tours. I'd be driving and like holding people's ponytails as they vomit Chardon.
Yeah, it doesn't help you to avoid saying no. And knowing when that takes time, I think is to know it's going to be okay. And something's going to push you to the edge to the point where you feel uncomfortable. Having an escape route in any social situation is my advice. Having an excuse at hand. Always take cash so that when splitting the menu, you can sneak up and pay and all of those little tricks and lessons are so good to know. Because you can leave out the back door and people are usually pretty inebriated by that point. So don't notice. Even if they do say, “Oh, come on, come on, come on.” It's only going to be a very momentary thing. And that need for you to drink is too. While that can be a momentary thing as well, it's so important to get yourself out there when you need to.
Emma: Yeah, yeah. 100% 100% and I agree with you, and I'm still learning and I think I'll always be still learning how to stand in my own and not be the little kind of kid holding a teddy bear and like that I actually feel like in my body when I'm in situations where I, I feel awkward, or I feel like I have to put a boundary in and I know that possibly someone's not gonna like it and it still feels uncomfortable.
Victoria: And it doesn't always work. I think that's the thing you got to find out. The other day, with my mum, I thought “I'm not gonna feed into the negativity today”. But yeah, I think she could feel it, and it was making her really riled up. So in situations like that, you know, you do have to tear the walls down a little bit. And maybe just nod and listen and go, yeah. Because there's some people who aren't going to accept your boundaries, and especially if they are someone close to you like that, that can be really hard.
The other day, I always say, like, if you don't want to go, if you don't feel like going, don't go to a wedding or something. But what if it is your brother's wedding? Oh, yeah, I haven't really thought about that. Like, what do you do if you've new sobriety and somebody who's close to you, it's their birthday, and you know, it's going to be a heavy boozing thing? It’s a really hard one. But I would always still say I think if you're not ready, don't go.
Pull a sickie, sneak out the back door, show your face. Do what you need to do. I was always saying yes all the time. And then that becomes your reputation.
Emma: I was that. Like, I had people who wouldn't talk to me for ages unless they wanted to go out on a bender. It's so interesting in reflection.
Community is really one of the reasons that I wanted Vic to come on and speak today, because she's established this awesome community. And both of us know how important it is in our recovery, and just encourage everybody, if you do feel like you need a place to land a soft place to land that Vic’s community is gorgeous. I'm on it. Like Vic says, my course my Aussie alcohol experiment’s on there. And you can get that for 10% off if you go in through Cuppa, so I highly encourage you to do that.
Victoria: Yeah, yeah. And it's just, it's such a cozy place. It's like sitting around a little campfire. It's that sort of place. Nobody's horrible. Everyone's understanding and it's really a sweet place to be. It's a sweet spot.
Emma: It is, it is it is and I love all the events and everything that you've got up there as well.
Victoria: That's a really cool thing, all these things happening all over the world. It's so lovely. Yeah, and anyone can put on theirs. Even if it's just meeting a mate for a cuppa, put it on there a right because there's people that are all over the world that desperate to meet other sober people, there’s people in all these far flung places, and they're desperate to meet other people in their local area, just to meet up once a month and talk about all this stuff. Because you can't talk about this stuff with your mates if they're still drinking. Or it's too confronting for them because they're still drinking. Having sober mates is so important. And it's especially great to find a sober mate to go to those drinking events with, like, I remember when Lucy gave up drinking, she's like, “I'm never gonna go out again”. I was like, “What? I'll come with you, I can be your like, your fall guy, and we can leave whenever we want. And if it gets weird, we're out of here”. So having those people in your life is going to make such a difference.
Emma: Yes. Yeah. It really does. It really does. Yeah. Well, thank you. Vic. Thanks so much for coming on. And being with me for these 30 minutes. I've loved getting to know you a little bit better and learning a bit more about you and your story. And I just really do recommend Vic's community. Like both of us. It's been such a big deal. Do you want to talk a little bit about your book before we go?
Victoria: So my diary that started all those years ago, four and a half years ago or longer, has now become my comedy memoir, which I've written. And, yeah, I got a publishing deal about three weeks ago. So that isn't going to be out till March 24. It's very exciting. It's about a lot of the same books and I'll be writing a second book for them as well, perhaps on parenting or sobriety not quite sure yet. But yes, so a two book publishing deal, but I'll be doing audio books as well, which will be fun. I'm really excited about doing that and going to a recording studio. And I can't believe like, my story is so weird, like, but as you said, it's everybody's story. And that's what makes it relatable. Like, you will see, elf in me and all those, you know, crazy stories, shame filled escapades. They're all in there. And, you know, it's all learning how I, you know, get over shame. And everybody's the same. And if we share it, it makes it a bit more communal.
Emma: So exactly right. A lot of people have a lot of things to gain from us thinking that we are, you know, bad, alone and weird and weak. And none of that's true. None of them are the same. Or just try and let you say we were just trying to be loved. Yeah, that's it. At the end of the day, these precious little people trying to find a bit of comfort and love
Victoria: Precious little bald chicks as your precious little bald chicks.
Emma: It's such a lovely image. Oh, thank you so much. My lovely, thanks for taking the time, take good care, and I'll see you soon.
