ο»ΏIn this episode of midlife AF, I am speaking to one of my very favourite human beings. Somebody who helped me so much in my early journey of kind of finding myself post a bit of a breakdown or as I like to refer to it my spiritual awakening. Lisa caught off. She is sensational. I'm sure many of you know her already. If you don't, she's one of Australia's leading transformational coaches. And she and I are talking as part of my live AF series about βhow do we be okay when the people that we love are not?β So this episode is called Unstuck, AF and I hand you over to a wonderful conversation between myself and Lisa.
If you're a woman in midlife, whose intuition is telling you that giving booze the elbow might be the next right move. Then midlife AF podcast is the podcast for you. Join counsellor psychotherapist, this naked mind and grey area drinking alcohol coach Emma Gilmore for a weekly natter about parenting quirky teens, menopause relationships and navigating this thing called midlife alcohol free. If you're feeling that life could be so much more that you're sick and tired of doing all the things for everyone else. If your intuition is waving her arms, manically at you saying it could all be so much easier if we didn't have to keep drinking, come with me. Together, we'll find our groove without booze.
Lovely, lovely. And the reason I wanted to come on, not only because she's just an amazing person to listen to anyway, but because I added these courses back in I didn't put in order to in 2019, 2020, or maybe 2021 as well, actually positive. So she's been quite a big influence on my life. And has really helped me in times where I was really at a really in a really low place feeling really stuck feeling like I didn't know what to do. And the circumstances around me felt like they were in control of my life. And Lisa really helped me change my narrative around that. And some of the tools that you have helped me with these have led me in such amazing directions that I would never have imagined. And so I would love you to introduce yourself and share whatever you want to share around being with people when they're struggling and how we can be okay, in those.
Well, okay, so, yes, I'm Lisa. And it has been amazing to watch your journey, it really has, it's actually a huge source of joy for me to see the work that you're doing, knowing where you were at when you came in. And, and everything that's changed for you. I just, I'm always watching. And I just think it's wonderful, and now helping other women in the way that you are. It's just like, it's the best. And I think, you know, the topic that we're talking about today is an interesting one. Because while I was you know, that 2019 stage of my life, that was one of the most intense years of my life, it was also one of the most successful years for my business. And I was teaching people this stuff without necessarily giving them any context to why I was teaching it how I'd learned those skills. My husband and I separated at the start of 2019. He'd been in recovery for alcohol dependence addiction, I'm not too sure how you talk about it. But for two years, obviously it had been an issue for quite a while but it was sort of officially diagnosed in 2017. And you know, I mean, I was watching. I was basically married to this amazing human who was not okay. You know, he was definitely not okay. For a long time, and it was huge , we were what would be classically described as codependent I felt absolutely responsible for. I mean, he is his mental health. Really, we had three kids in and under four years, we're living away from home, up in Brisbane, so all our family was down in Melbourne, I'd started my own business, he worked as an aerospace engineer, life was really full and busy. He was also a recording artist and a painter and all things. And, and we had such an intense love, you know, and I didn't, I couldn't really separate myself from him and his well being. And that's when I started to learn about things like codependence because as much as I loved him, nothing I ever did was ever going to change his choices. And where he was at, it was the hardest lesson I've ever had to learn. It's had massive spin off effects. For me in my life, especially because our marriage ended in 2019, he entered a six month sober house. And then and so I was parenting our three kids solo, kind of trying to recover from the fact that this is where my life had ended up. I just, I couldn't even get my head around it at the time. Like, this is not my marriage. This is not my neck. This is not what you mean, I'm married to an alcoholic? I just can't. And so all of that was going on. And then he actually relapsed the night he left the house. And he passed away in India, where he went on a mission to find peace that he was just craving all the time. It was all he actually ever wanted was to feel peaceful inside himself. And that was what booze was for him. He was just, it was just a feeling of peace. And I saw your real self before about the amount of undiagnosed neurodivergent people. And for sure, you know, the psychologist that I started to see soon after he died, because he died in India. September 2019 was like this. He sounded autistic. And I said, Well, he didn't know. It was only about 2015 or 16, he discovered Asperger's, as it was called sort of back then, and was like, Oh my God, oh, my whole life makes sense. And we started reading about it. And we were like, Oh my God, yes, this is exactly this is you like what? Yeah, and no psychologist would ever diagnose him. So he didn't he never would. I believe he would still be alive. If someone had said to him, you're not, they were medicating him for all sorts of things. And, and, and he kept on thinking this is not helping. This is not the problem. This is not this does not make sense to me getting involved in that recovery space. I mean, there's so much that I have to say about it. But that's not where we're going. What pains me is the lack of understanding and awareness of neurodivergent thinking. Yeah, presentation. Back then, like it's coming so far now. Thank God, thank God and my psych, that psych who works with a lot of people in the addiction spaces, I would say 98% of people struggling with alcohol dependence and addiction are neurodiverse Yeah. And it just makes so much sense when you delve into it anyway. So I was basically just watching this man, not being okay. And literally nothing that I did. Because I tried everything Emma, I tried. I mean, no stone was left unturned. I remember, I remember when our marriage ended even his family said there's literally nothing more you could have done. But throughout the lead up to that there was a sense of I am not okay. A in myself, because I am trying to manage you. And my job has to be made. And I remember coming up in bumping up against all these sorts of things. You know, people say that that whole line of your only Oh, you can only be as okay as your most unhappy child or something. And I kept on thinking, what? Like, one of my kids is always in the shit like, or something like what do you mean so I have to put my own half Venus is my own sense of joy, my own purpose, my own well, well being to the side, if I have children, or a partner, that's not okay. And it was an equation that didn't make sense to me because as I was moving through this, I realised I was the golden goose. I was the one who was actually holding it all together, I was the one fucking handling it. But, I had to prioritise myself at the bottom of the pile. And I got shingles. Yeah, I was not okay, I was not, I was not well. And I realised I needed to flip, I needed to put, I needed to work on how to keep myself okay, and allow my people who are going to live. Hopefully, my children will live long lives, they're going to have these constant ups and downs, they're going to be like this. I mean, my son started high school this year, it has been dramatic. Why didn't you warn me? He had anxiety stuff that I was not aware of, and has reared its head right now. And having had a parent who dies, you know, the sights all told me, you know, things will drop for them at different stages. And, I 'm just always really aware of them and what they're going through. But the beautiful thing that I learned was like, they are going to have their human experience. And I'm either going to be right in the mud with them, tearing myself apart. I mean, we hate seeing our people in pain, no one wants that. But, but I need to be this, this, like, I need to be here and I can create a space for them to feel to explore themselves. But it's not my it's not my job to fix them. It's not my job to you know, of course, we do what we have to for our children, you know, they're not on their own. But I don't. I don't feel like I guess I was trying to protect them all those years, from the very, very worst thing that could happen. And the worst thing did happen. And, and watching my children navigate the grief of their dad learning how to live without their dad has shown me that, actually, we're pretty amazing as humans, we're pretty amazing. And they have so many answers, if we actually just allow them to, you know,
law themselves not try to. I couldn't protect them from the pain. I wish I could. But we can't. And so who am I choosing to be for them? It has to include, like being a woman who takes really good care of herself, so that I have the inner resources and availability to create that space for them, not fix them have the space for them. Okay.
That's it. That's exactly it. And I remember when I remember hearing you saying to other people, people can have their experience of life, and I have my own experience of life. And those two things can coexist. And there's a duality we can be the world can be having a really bad time. But we can also be okay. And I remember thinking, wow, that's the sort of messaging that I need for myself. And also, like I say, many of the women in my community are dealing with lots and lots of different things going on with other people. And often, you know, that trauma response of fixing it and doing everything for everybody is really prevalent as well. And I think what you teach which is so invaluable, away from the sort of, you know, getting our nails painted version of self care, is that just creating some space for ourselves. It makes such a difference.
And it's, it's so it's not super sexy, a message in lots of ways. It is profound because for some reason we forgot. We forgot that where the main character in our own lives, you know, we get we become mothers, and we've and we become partners And suddenly, we just sort of give over the main character role to our people. And in fact, it's us and, and women are the fucking heroes of the story of our time. And we forget the ways to create this life, with all of our choices, we just forget we have them. We forget we have them, because we go into default service mode. And it's not sorry, I swear a lot, but if you like, we just, you just wouldn't drop your kids and let them fend for themselves, that's never going to be the case. So if that's not going to be the case, then how can you show yourself as much love and compassion for yourself, as you do for your children? I just think, you know, someone said to me, once, you can only give from an overflowing cup, you know, because if you like even the full cup, that means that what you're giving is depleting the cup. So, we need to be just really beefing our own cup, we need to be filling it. So it's overflowing. So we've got more to give. But I see women get trapped in this fast paced life of just go go go, like there's just so much all the time, our kids are begging for us to slow down, not our need, the amount of things that we see that we have this sense of, we're letting them down if we're not doing all that blah, blah, blah, our kids. I mean, they don't, they don't want the pace. I really don't think and I think that was actually one of the gifts of COVID that we've kind of forgotten. And yeah, you know, especially our neurodivergent kids who operate on a completely different frequency. And we've got so much to learn from that the world is messed up. Because like, all of the structures, the education system, the amount of hours that we work, like even that home, you know, people bringing in a four day workweek and it's so freakin revolutionary. And it's like I think it's just a sign and, and neurodivergent people know this more than anyone else, that it's just not sustainable the way that we're doing things. So let's just like Look over here. I mean, the amount that you talked to people about, you know, our reliance on alcohol. And I mean, you know, we've had many conversations about this, and I did a real around Mother's Day, which was yeah, just about I think it was, I can't remember who the bottle shop was sort of like, you know, for the moms who have a sneaky G and T, before dinner, you know, gins on sale. And it's like, stop giving women booze. Why should having such a big life be unmanageable? Manageable. Yeah, she just needs to take the edge off so she can get through the dinner routine and bed routine, like, Yeah, something's gone wrong here. Let's talk about that. That's more interesting.
Episode, freaking lately, that's what the conversation should be about. It's so interesting. It's so frustrating for me that the conversation always goes into the kind of the alcohol as opposed to the reasons why the people so
much. I know every time I use the word alcoholic, or addict or something like that to describe Nick, that people would have a sense of who he was. And where make and he was in recovery. Yeah. And he would go to rehab the stories that he would come back with, of the judges, the pilots, the paediatricians and all these sorts of people. It was, it's not like, hang on, why are these? These people are so stressed. I mean, I saw something the other day. I think four corners is telling a big story about cocaine. seen that? Yeah. And, yeah, I mean, just the statistics that they've got about who is having it all the time that it's just yeah. And you just think, yes. Why? Why? What is happening to the world? What is this really, really all about? And I see phages through late stages, capitalism is killing us literally. So Yeah, like patriarchal structure, like, I mean, this is a thing and this stuff is what's happening. But, you know, when it comes down to the, like the topic that we're talking about today and being okay, when our people aren't okay, it does open up big questions for us women, about as, as amazing create trusses, I mean, we literally build families, we, we create this life as we go, that we have to stop to question, what we're telling ourselves is normal, or what we're telling ourselves is success, or what we're telling ourselves is good parenting, or all of that stuff. Unless, and that's what that's really what you came in and did in ready for change. It's like, hang on, what's the story you're telling yourself? And is this even true? What is the story of this world, this society, this normality that we've created and isn't actually working for anybody? Who is this working for right now? Like, yeah. And we can only do those things when we switch things back to ourselves and start asking ourselves bigger questions. And globally it's happening, it's happening, but there's no kind of, I do see that a lot of leaders, so a lot of people who have had way more placed on them. And I've put mothers into this, as well. People lead other people through crisis through change, there's been more demands on them, more expectations, their capacity is maxed out. So burnout is happening, burnout is rife. It's everywhere.
And 100%.
I think that when, if you see yourself as the golden goose, if you see yourself as as the leader of your team, whether it is a business, whether it is your family, whether it is a classroom, I mean, teachers, if you see yourself as the golden goose, the one they are looking at you, but you might not be responsible for what you think you need to be responsible for your responsibility lies with yourself. Your responsibility lies with you being the best version of you and people do they talk about self care, as I mean, it's just, but it's actually more honouring of the role that you have. And the fact that if you want to show up for your people, if you actually really do want to help, it's not fixing their problems. It's being the kind of person that can be steady, who takes care who nourishes themselves? I mean, he does really small, simple things like just taking a little bit of timeout sometimes to recalibrate, like our brains have too much stimulation these days. And yeah, and it's like, it's all these really unsexy things that that will allow us to be people who can lead our people through through change through crisis and lead ourselves, but, but we're not, but everyone's just trying to pivot and reinvent and reimagine without actually stopping and going hungry. Firstly, I think we've got a major, major problem with unresolved grief. Sorry, I'm just going, I'm just talking about me.
Yeah, no,
I do think that a lot of these people are these people at the top of organizations of governments of families are so fucking sad about what's been lost the past few years. And no one has stopped to feel their grief. No one has properly grieved. What this has caused us, you know, really only a people clear about it, because I do think that it wants to be felt. And they're all just trying to move on to the next thing and hold so much holding so much. Without actually just going, Oh, I'm sad. I am not okay. This was really, really hard. There are still I mean, you know, I did a live event a few weeks ago, God was it. I know. I just was mentioning like, you know, and it was obviously a roomful of Melbourne moms. And it was like a wheel right away. Okay. After the COVID isn't there? I was like, yeah, no, it was. It was funny. That was okay. Yeah, Glenn. Okay. The kids still aren't okay. Each ripple has an ongoing ripple effect. And when we don't kind of we haven't fully acknowledged it, we've just tried to go about business as usual and people aren't okay. And the first step has to be to recognize and acknowledge what was lost, what we feel sad about, have they let themselves who's sad, people's businesses are complete transformations to what they used to be, or they lost them. You know, people's kids aren't going to school anymore for
so many kids. And many people aren't going to
my, my bed this morning, just like I just I don't want to go, I just don't want to go. And I'm like, I know. No, I get it. And I am at the moment really, you know, talking to the kids a lot about this life that we're living in how we're doing is like, Mum, you say that some of the stuff that I don't, I'm learning at school, you know, we talk a lot about the future that they're going to walk into, I mean, it's only going to be quite chaotic, quite like it's going to be filled with change, change is going to be rapid and fast. And the impacts are going to be huge. Yeah. So how do we prepare our kids for that? And? And I think, yeah,
That's exactly right. And this compliance, compliance, compliance, compliance isn't forcing people to push through. Like, it's what happened to us when we were kids, you know, the ramifications of that we see in the burnout, you know, to that I
Remember, one of the core things that I often talk to women about is boundaries, like learning how to say no, like, No, I am not. And I know you experienced this. In your household, it's like, if someone is really feeling a no, I can't. I don't have the capacity for this. Why are we disrespecting that? It doesn't make sense. They have this sense of what feels okay. And no one's been naughty or bad. It's, it's not that, and yet, we keep on expecting ourselves to, you know, fulfil this broken, you know, way of being system, and it just doesn't make sense anymore. It just doesn't make sense. And so no wonder people, I mean, I've done the escapist stuff like everybody else, but I haven't escaped into booze, or destructive things like that. But we've all needed to Yeah. Like, escape. Yeah. But we, but then that only lasts so long. And then we come back in and we have to be in this world. And we have to have skills for leading ourselves through change and through crises. And I think, yeah, yeah.
Putting our big girl pants on and having the difficult conversations, which a lot of the time we're missing, a lot of reading, because we're drinking or working, or whatever it is that we decide to do to take us away from ourselves. I love what you do, please, and I love this conversation. I thank you and honour you so much for bringing yourself to it. Very Randy. I love what you're doing. I
love. It's also because what you're doing is disruptive. It's disruptive to the status quo. And I think the status quo is ripe for disruption. And if people like you, and I, you know, pretty just, I mean, you're not average, but I consider myself just, you know, I'm just a person, I'm asking myself these questions, everyone's asking themselves these questions. And unless we have, unless we give that gift ourselves, the chance to really explore it and sit with it, which you can't do if you're just constantly just numbing yourself or whatever. And then we're going to miss the opportunity. And I think of us as, you know, as very, very privileged women. We need to be opening up spaces where this can be discussed where we can all be like, I don't know, do you know the way I'm not too sure. But this just feels like a lot. Then I think that's a good thing for people to take off their masks and to just be honest.
Yeah, 100% and that honesty is everything, isn't it? And that's why in an alcohol space, having that conversation where you're like, people are like I'm drinking because I can't, I can't relax unless I have a drink. Literally, I have all these things going on in my brain. And other people are like, Oh, me too. And you're like, Ah, okay. So it's not just me. And like you say, it's like having those conversations because we all think that this normal, which is bullshit, is actually how we should be. And we cry,
because it's right. And then one person in that community will say, I just got an ADHD diagnosis. And my whole life has changed, because I just realised that I was trying to like that, that chatter in my head, and that always constantly on the blower, there's not there's not nothing wrong with me, it's just my brain. And then in the ripple effects of that, for everybody who hears that and learns from it, is extraordinary. So it's an amazing community who can talk honestly and share about this stuff.
So lucky, so lucky. Thank you least I know. It has been wonderful for the people who I work with who follow me to listen to you. I'm sure they already are following you anyway. But for me, Lisa's work is so literally for me, I was on the floor, I didn't know what to do. I had no idea what to do with myself. I was broken, I left a 20 plus year career. And everything simply felt like it was falling apart. And I worked with Lisa. And I kept working with Lisa because I really loved the way that she talks and the way that she does things. And it really helped me. And I bring a lot of the work that I learned from Lisa into my own work. And so it just keeps having this ripple effect place throughout my life. And I know, a lot of people who follow me follow you anyway. But a lot of people who were in my world, I think would really benefit from everything that you do. So would you be kind enough to share what you're what you're currently what you're currently doing, what your current offering is happening, we're
going through a little bit of a transition phase to be honest. Um, but I do have two main programs. So the one that you are referring to that you came in on was called ready for change. And I've read a package that is now updated, it included a lot more stuff. I mean, I didn't even really know about diversity before, but back then. So I felt like there was just a lot that needed to be acknowledged in that program. So that is now called the change method. And, when I run it, I actually teach it live. So I teach it over two hour workshops. And yeah, I just think people probably want a bit more, you know, in real life stuff these days. But I also have, like, a fabulous three month experience called the change room where, you know, it's all the core stuff that you know, for me, all the things like when a woman is feeling like she just needs to upgrade, like life just needs to be upgraded in certain ways. She enters the change room, and I just walk her step by step through just different areas of her life. And we follow my basics for life, which are just basically six principles that I kind of live my life by and women experience like it doesn't have to be hard. My message always feels a shift in life, it just doesn't have to be hard. And sometimes the smallest things can make such a profound difference in our lives. I wish more people could experience that. I think the way we go about creating change in our lives with big New Year's resolutions or in stuff like that. It's like, hang on a minute, what that never works. And there's so many brain based reasons why that kind of change, why diets don't work, why none of that. So the change room is, is everything over the last 12 years that I have learned about behaviour change put into a program specifically for overwhelmed women who are looking to create some change in their lives. So yes, I mean, if people can message me if they want links to any of those things, but I do feel there is something coming through about leading through change. I do think that this world that we have found ourselves in is going to be constant evolution, constant disruption. Our kids are going to need skills for that and they're going to be looking to us and we need to skill up for this world. So that says it's not for moms with kids at home. Yeah, it's for everyone. In fact, men contact me quite a lot in there like Can I please? Yeah, yeah. So anyway, I probably should talk more about the things that I sell on my Instagram but mostly that's just me sharing stories of my life. So thank you for having me.
Oh, I'm so glad you're here and I so wish I'd come and see you speak at Harvard. sounded amazing.
I was so nervous and McAfee shared his story. I'll probably Melbourne, but I'm hoping to take it to Sydney and Brisbane. So, but we'll just wait. It's a bit hard for me to leave my kids at the moment. So I've sort of got to go. Go with them.
Oh, thank you so much.
Thanks for tuning in to this week's episode of midlife AF with Emma Gilmore. If you enjoyed it, please share on Instagram for your friends and tag me at hote rising coaching. If you want to help me grow the podcast please review the episodes for me on Apple podcast that really helps. If you would like to work further with me please go to my website www Haute rising coaching.com for my free and paid programs or email me at Emma at Hope rising coaching.com sending a massive catalogue to you and yours for me and mine and remember to keep choosing you
