In this episode of midlife, if I talk to the wonderful non-diet dieticians, Meg and Susan, in what I have called nourished A F. This is part of my Live AF series that I did to launch the great Aussie alcohol experiment in June. Meg and Susan talk about things that are very dear to my heart, as I am a passionate advocate for getting diet culture out of our families out of our intergenerational experience of life and away from our children. So protecting our children from diet culture, and healing our own wounds around diet culture and body image. So these are important conversations over to Susan and make.
If you're a woman in midlife, whose intuition is telling you that giving booze the elbow might be the next right move. Their midlife AF podcast is for you. Join counsellor psychotherapist, this naked mind and grey area drinking alcohol coach Emma Gilmore for a weekly natter about parenting quirky teens, menopause relationships and navigating this thing called midlife alcohol free. If you're feeling that life could be so much more that you're sick and tired of doing all the things for everyone else. If your intuition is waving her arms, manically at you saying it could all be so much easier if we didn't have to keep drinking. Come with me. Together, we'll find our groove without booze. Welcome, everybody, this is so lovely. We have a beautiful mech. And Susan here, I've been so excited about talking to these two lovely ladies. Because this is such a passion project of mine. And so as part of our we're doing this live series in the lead up to the launch of my great Ozzy alcohol experiment, and as such, I've brought together all these amazing women doing these fabulous things. But particularly with Meg and Susan, such an important work, such important work that these guys do, in terms of really looking after our kids and looking after our precious selves in a world that, you know, has a slant to it. And I was just talking with this court about the world and how, you know, we have this idea of what normal is, and it's very, very nice to stop and systemically, things are very messed up as well. And a lot of the time we've got no idea what we're what we're swimming in,
and how easy it is to feel like a fish out of water. When you're doing that actually, you know, what's best for you is looking after yourself.
Yes, yes. And how easy it is to kind of get dragged back into it all again and start getting part of that hamster wheel and start sort of, yeah, it's so easy. Before we get into the nuts and bolts of our conversation, I wondered if you too, would be kind enough to introduce yourself to the people watching who don't who might not know who you are already.
Sure you get I'm gonna go Alright, so we're in season. So we are dieticians or non dieticians, who have worked in each other's orbits, that we have similar practices, even though we've come from different clinical dietetic backgrounds. And have sort of gotten to a certain age where you're a bit more about impact. And so we love the work that we do one on one with clients, and it's really important, but quite often, by the time people get to us, there's a really long story, there's some missed opportunities for things we're not gone quite so wrong. And there's potentially opposition years of sort of just living in a bit of a battle with their body in just not feeling comfortable not feeling confident with what they're doing with food, which you know, going to eat several times a day. So that can be really taken away, making people's lives a lot smaller. And so we are hoping it has been around for prevention work before things get to the real point of eating disorders. And we've often talked about how sometimes we feel like a toothpick holding back a tsunami. Like we're a little toothpick, trying to stop diet, culture and stop, you know, industry from really destroying and drowning people. And so by the work that we're doing together, we're hoping we can sort of just be getting lots and lots and lots of toothpicks alongside whole communities, families, schools, whatever. So be part of that holding it.
So yes, we're wanting to do more get get more impact than we can on on one Yeah, absolutely,
absolutely. And it's such a, it's so interesting because I think, for me, diet culture is one of those that is almost like one of the last bastions of people still holding on to it as if it's not a problem. It's not problematic. You know, there's still, for me, you know, having been on my own personal journey with it, and also having two neurodivergent kids who, for whom, you know, eating disordered eating and eating disorders, you know, statistically, they're much more likely to become a statistic in that world. So for me, keeping a diet coach about my family out of my home as much as is physically possible is such it and that's why it's just for me, the work that you're doing is incredible. Because still nowadays we have people who don't like me, and this is one of the things I'd love to ping us off with. You know, one of the things that people still do very cool, very, is comment on the shape of our bodies and how we look? Yes, Greta,
it's really surprising when you're in like a really sort of progressive sort of, like,
often people who are having a lot of concerns about their weight and shape that part of the problem is so with any other thing about somebody, whether it's their skin colour, or sexuality thing like that, if they're being teased for they're being bullied for if they've been treated different differently for it as a culture, we go, no, no, no, hey, bullies, it's just not. And I think in particular, people think it's just this fully under our control. And if we just did the right thing, we'd all have a certain body.
Yeah, absolutely. And particularly this the connection between, you know, health and wellbeing, and being in a centre in an in a sense, most smaller body, and it's actually
health behaviours and not our weight, shape or size. And often
the point that if there are associations with being in a larger body, and increased rates of chronic and complex disease, are we considering the rate of stigma and repeated attempts of weight loss? Yes, yeah. But unfortunately, it's almost being sort of taken away by those real white central views of the way to avoid weight stigma is to be smaller. So here's this gravel, is this new surgery? Or is this as opposed to you know, the problem with weight stigma is on a society level, not on just being nice to people while telling them that they need to become smaller.
At least the conversations are happening. You're absolutely right. But it's extraordinary how pervasive it is, like I said, in people that you would hope would No, no better. No. And that's why I think it's so important to keep having these compensation, because it's having them that changes these things.
Yeah, that weight is actually a modifiable risk factor, you know, like people who are tall, like, tall men have high risks of certain diseases. Yeah, well, we don't want to become shorter, because we just know, that's, that's actually not possible. And so we just don't have that same trust in, I guess, our bodies when it comes to, like a predetermined sort of adult weight. You know, and we just, for some reasons, and then probably because there's so much money to be made, that it's hundreds of billions of dollar industry bodies are pretty good at defending themselves. You know, even when people have the most restrictive and invasive surgeries like those, the weight loss happens, but then regains happen.
It's extraordinary, isn't it, that car bodies are there. They're telling us things and they have a way of sorting balance out that's kind of it's like, you know, cleanses and things like that, you know, it's like our body has a great system for cleansing weight loss,
has become the thing that people think is going to give them access to that whole cultural narrative of oh, well, the way to be healthy, wealthy, happy, Yeah, beautiful. You will have a great job or have good relationships. Yeah, it's often not even the weight loss of people after they're after what they've what they hope it's going to give them access to.
That's exactly right. And I speak from that as a person who's 100% been in that place, and still have a lot of internalised fat phobia myself. Like I'm talking to my mum recently, you know, I understand where judgement has come from and, you know, actually, that it's, it's a part of herself, you know, a lot of the time it's just trying to keep ourselves safe. In an environment that's not made for people like me, you know, like people, you know, people in a different state. Buddy, then what the ideal
is. And I think we're really lucky in the work that we do, because we actually get to hear firsthand from so many people that those things are actually not as connected as we think they are. But also we see again and again, it's not actually correlated, you will get confirmation again and again and again, throughout clients of those, you do not have to have a certain body to access this story. And it's no guarantee.
And I mean, of course, then there is the real stigmatisation as well that people experience in bigger bodies, which, you know, for me, when I was talking to my mom, she used to be bullied for being in a Buddhic bigger body as a kid. So of course, being in a smaller body for her felt safe.
And I think even in that time, though, even if it is short term, I've certainly worked with people who have, perhaps have about to do surgery and had a significant weight loss. And actually, there's no significant struggle or it is not fair that I'm being treated differently. Why like, that's not okay. And that's actually been a really significant stressor for them. If I'm the same person, am I being treated so differently, and it reflects on how they do and perhaps even realise how poorly they will be treated?
I've heard that too. Actually, friends who've lost weight, had very different experiences. Yes,
it's very different to the dream of those sold, as
Yes, this happened. Yes, yes. And I totally hear you in grief as well, because for me, there was a lot of grief and knife in my journey. I ended up having a little slip up after I stopped dieting and going back to it, because I just couldn't sort of get my head around it. And then I went back again. And I think the biggest piece for me and it's taking ages, was just realising that I don't love anybody any less because of the size of their body. And then thinking, well, if I don't love anybody any less because of the size of their body, I couldn't give it two hoots what size my friends bodies are, then it's highly likely that people will feel the same way about me. Yeah,
pre COVID. I was doing a fair few and talking to schools. Yeah, so you know, it's talking about some of that stuff. And yeah, well being, I used to run an activity where I give them all a bunch of post it notes. If I post notes and say, I want you to write down those notes. The top five attributes or things that you love in your friends? What do you look for? What makes a good friend like, what is it that you're loving your friends? And invariably, there was never one thing? On the physical side? No one cares. Nothing. It was just never physical. It was always who is this person?
I appreciate what you're saying. Sometimes it's not about how others view the size of the body. It can be something else also. Yeah, for sure. Absolutely. And feel free to add any more that you want to about Sandy and help us turn it into a conversation. Yeah. I just think that work that you're doing, particularly with children is so important, because even without realising it, a lot of us bring our own internalised fat phobia into the home. And it's protecting our kids from that. So that is the possibility and this is why I love what you're doing so much and just will champion you guys through to the end of the earth because the possibility that our kids don't have to live like this.
Yeah, yeah,
we sort of, you know, really kind of, like how much that that phobia or just sort of teasing or lack of empathy even makes about three boys and I've got three girls, it's like we sort of we you know, like, my, my little bit older and so the TV that they watch, you know, the kid shows were things like Peppa Pig and, you know, poor ol Daddy Pig would get, you know, teased about Daddy Pigs, big tummy, and, you know, like, just those moments where you're like, oh, how does daddy pig feel about that? You know, I wonder how dedicated feels like trying to just encourage empathy. What would that feel like to be being teased about, like the body that you live in? You know, like, just trying to get that capacity for I guess care for other people and for yourself. What does it you know, what does it mean to this is the body that you've got, this is where you're going to live. And there isn't another one. But again, throughout their, throughout their growth and development, trying to be really steady with what's actually happening. You know, like, early puberty sort of signs. Yeah. Okay. This is a little bit weird, isn't it? You know, and these things are happening and it's fine. It's fine. You're okay.
Yeah. It's, it's huge, isn't it? It's such a, I don't know, for so many adolescents, and even, you know, pre teen neurodivergent kids, I was one of these as well, the prevalence of going into disordered eating. So there's so many parts of having disordered eating in Similarly, now a lot of connection with alcohol use issues as well. So that's a you know, there is a big connection there, I think, particularly around trauma, including neuro divergence. Exactly, exactly. And a lot of the time, you know, what I'm noticing, particularly with my kids is, there's an there is, and I know, I was just talking to Lester about the same thing, that there's a propensity to get people to push through, when they're having when they are finding everything too much. Because that's the way our culture works. Yeah, activity. And often, you know, for some, some people, it's something some kids, it feels like the only thing that they have actually got any control over as well, it's like, and that's how I felt, I remember feeling very strongly like that when I was anorexic, as a as a, as a teenager, it was just like, nothing else is in my control.
And I think that's what we're sort of, we might not go too much into the data about what we're sort of now in understand, but Insights is not everyone is I want to be thin, I'm on a diet, or now I've got an eating disorder, the deficit for whatever reason, sensory issues. Yeah, sometimes it can be the numbing out of not eating, yes, helps a couple of feelings. And that gets you into a deficit that kicks off. Not always, not everyone who goes in the same way.
In many different ways, isn't that
the client that we work with will have boundless compassion? For everyone out? Yes. Yeah. You know, like,
similar to alcohol.
Yes, that's right. That idea of, you know, certainly just starting here for you, sometimes not enjoyable, I think that I do, that we sort of hopefully are having a bit more nuance around is, you know, they've won, they've been one way of like, doing etc. And, you know, being able to actually, I think, as adults sort of stay steady enough with our children to go, Alright, there's something, something here and also with some of the beautiful models that we've got saying, like intuitive eating, or just avoiding turning them into a new set of rules is so important. So they stay in a sense of safety, security and trust of their own body. Even sort of conversations, I suppose around, you know, hunger and fullness, not everyone's going to have a sort of acuity and some people are going to need a little bit of a Yeah,
I found juggle hugely with interoceptive awareness and a lot of neurodivergent people do and also a lot of people who've had disordered eating because we've stuffed down on it, right? Yeah.
So it can be that sort of Yeah, of conscious eating of it means that I really feel that right now, it may not be the best medication for ADHD will have a significant impact on their hunger cues, might start noticing it in other ways. So I might need to let you know sometimes it's just a job.
Also, sometimes, you know, being really attentive to eating is actually so being sort of mindfully mindless, so that you can sort of get this job done.
Yeah, culturally, healthy eating is like Instagram healthy eating, which is all green juices and whatever. And I think health professionals or dietitians can sometimes be really good. I'm an expert. This is what healthy eating looks like. It's my job to make you eat like this. We work in that more client centred Well, I'm gonna manage rates. How are we going to plug some gaps with something easy while we're working on what you want from your eating variety? What you want from your, I guess,
Looking for a writer doesn't have to be a million.
And that's the thing, especially with autistic kids, like my kids or autistic kids, you know, is it really them eating everything that you expect them to eat, you know, the hill you want to die on?
Can we not add unnecessary stress for you? And can we also be building resilience and competence and craving like where is that and they'll be different times of life? for their own reasons. We don't have to be pushy, pushy, pushy. You know, is it In the room is what do you what's important to you? And what do you want? What are the risks associated with that? And can we minimise them in a way that doesn't
carry stress? Yeah. Doesn't make them a great big drama that people are going to rebel against. It's that, you know, if you start telling, like, for example, if you start telling people not to eat a certain food, they're gonna want it. Same with alcohol. That's the whole you know, one of the big issues with alcohol is making it something you can't have, it becomes something you want more than life itself. Right. Scarcity, same thing
I really like it. When we spoke before that there's a book that probably most non diet dietitians started with, which was the if not dieting, then watch by recap. Question. Yeah, I can have any, if I wanted to, do I want it now. And it was just like, pause check in. It works in lots of situations that work well. But yeah, it's just that nice invitation to check in or whatever it is that you notice about your body. What are your signs? Yeah. You know, what would it be about the thing whether it is alcohol, or it is food? Like what would that be? What
would it mean, you Oh, there we go. Love the 10 Minute Rule for anything, delay it for 10 minutes?
Yeah, it's interesting. You know, particularly, I mean, I can't be 15 Now, next week. But just that consciousness, particularly particularly around, say, alcohol, how you might choose to use it, and whether you're using it to relax for when you are relaxed, like that's, that's quite different. Yeah. Yeah,
my sister did that just to explore and then she wanted to extend it. And what I noticed very much was for me, I could still have all the benefits of the ritual in the afternoon having a chat to not feel like it was missing. I mean, I hadn't done it sort of with any intention for myself. I was just like, Yeah, I have to do that. But learn to hate by just that. This is a time I would have gone and grabbed a drink. That's really interesting. What's that? About? So that non Yeah, just non judgmental awareness. I think everything parallels to
with, particularly for women, and say, you know, like, the frantic busyness that happens, whether you're a parent or not like but let's just be stereotyped women are often the ones who take the load of the whole sort of family extended family, the sitting down with either a few Vicki's Yeah, or, or a drink is often my permission to actually stop and rest.
Right? Exactly right.
I need this prop. So everyone will leave me alone.
Yeah, yeah. When I remember, I've had clients saying to me before, well, if I'm drinking, I'm still doing something. But I don't actually have to do anything. So that Yeah. Oh, productivity. Well, it's got to be doing
like, I'm reading for myself. I suppose it is a way that I give myself permission to rest, which I shouldn't lose. Yeah. But if I sit down on the couch and read, I feel like most parents would feel like I'm doing something productive. But that pause to go, Oh, what is that? And again, I just come back to being curious about what is making me
I feel judged. Not judging. I did three Tim Tams yesterday, after I'd had a conversation with the clinician at the school my kids were supposed to go to yesterday and wasn't able to coach you. And I was like, Okay, I see what's happening here. We're having three two times in quick succession. We've just got off the phone from this.
Let people often demonise contributing or using food. Like it's terrible. You've got then you might find that it is less effective. What if you go to a but then you beat yourself up for it. So don't even get soothing? It works. And I want it to be the only thing that we lean into leading late because we're beating ourselves up for it because we feel like we're not allowed to do it. But that
The chin makes food so powerful. Yeah. And like It's like that pendulum now. So if you know, like I said, not allowed to have it. Then it becomes like the most powerful thing of course, it could be the emotional regulator you need it to be but I think that process, dieting and restricting sort of demonising but also putting us on a pedestal, actually we become unaware of the other things perhaps that we enjoy. Yeah, like can use comedy or reading or Yeah, movement or whatever it might be. So we ended up with, like, one tool in our toolbox. Just over the last couple of years, the marketing to women, particularly young women, I think around option is that, you know, sort of keeping up with the boys out there, bro culture. And there's a parallel thing happening like with food young seem sort of pretty bad like smashing out a burger. I mean, anyone can have a burger.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But
just the idea of the way we marketed to. And the way, you know, back to the beginning, what do we regard as sort of normal? That is driven by some industry somewhere. And so if we can, like, come back to our own consciousness, our own sense of ourselves and what works for us, we can like, Yeah, I'm buying into that right now. Or, actually, no, that's not for me. I'm good.
Yeah, absolutely. I'm reading what Sandy is saying as well. Recovery and living life is an act of rebellion. Absolutely. Brilliant. Yeah. Absolutely. Brilliant. And so are there any tips that you would give to people out there? Who are and I will come on to the work that you actually do, and you're, you know, your business and things like that. But I'm wondering, is there anything that we could take away from this conversation to reduce the impact of diet culture in our home,
I recommend, first thing I sort of think about is, it's going to be the wrong word. But detox checking of the things that you find are making you feel not so great, like the maybe accounts that you followed in the past, you know, things that still pop up, but perhaps don't feel so good after. But like we do, you know, we did a workshop earlier, earlier this year, so far, I have no idea. It's practically you know, in a financial year. About like that, sort of like a diet culture detox. So
I try to figure out what shows my watching are the messages coming in that I'm absorbing what social media gets away with, because again, back to that, we want to build resilience and make the world safer. I want to be doing those two things. Don't have an audit of your space and audit of your home. What are the things in your house that actually align with our culture, we've got to keep our there'll be the growing up happening in spaces where it's not normal. So like, you
know, women's magazine, sort of love the celebrity befores and afters, get them down out TV shows all about like you know what I mean it's not even on anymore the biggest loser but catching the household like you know, maybe there's negative commentary about bodies and you might not be ready to you know, talk about yourself as a you know, glorious creature of God's creation just yet, but just not actually saying the negative things out loud. I think yeah, try that in
the conversation because we can't avoid everything so much as we can, we want to avoid but in the other ones is looking for opportunities to have the conversation out of where you were with a bluey gate was the thing in your circles. You had this conversation? So were my kids old enough that I didn't have to do it like you're not watching that. You know, some other reading really Harry Potter and the awful stuff around the Dursleys were horrible people at their size. So actually going oh, isn't that interesting that they're trying to use that as a repulse? What do you think about that? Like beautiful friends in larger bodies? How would they feel really near so again, then the empathy phase of the trial has little phrases that you're ready to go to when it invades your space? Because there's
because it's well, and it's sometimes a surprise, isn't it? Oh, yes. Yeah. And I think
too, like it's okay to protect your energy and not feel like you have to advocate at every single opportunity because especially like if it's, it's a bit of a new idea, too. People find themselves all tangled up and they can't quite get the words right. And then they doubt themselves and feel undermined and oh,
just not engaging in it. That's what I had a situation recently with. One of my male friends was in front of one of my kids and was talking about how we came back from holiday and he was doing this juice cleanse and I couldn't. I just felt really awkward. I didn't know what to say, because I didn't want to make him feel bad. And I also know my kids are pretty astute. They're in their teens. And they're pretty, like full on in terms of their own advocacy for the rights of
point to the poster.
But, but afterwards, we had the conversation afterwards, I was like, Oh, that was a bit funny when? Yeah, I reckon he still must have some of those beliefs. And Mikey was like, Yeah, I thought that as well. And we were both like, yeah, what just
what a terrible way to come back from holiday to
relaxing. Now, I feel bad talking about him.
That's the thing, like you said, right at the beginning, that internalised fat phobia. And what are we all swimming in?
It can be a massive blind spot for people so it's like a real? And I think until you kind of realise it, it remains a blind spot. Yes,
yeah, we have, you know, we've got family members who are pretty, still pretty fat phobic Ken and my girls will just sort of look at me and like, I roll. You know, I wouldn't say grandma. My mom and my mother in law will come out with an absolutely, yeah, they'll look at me and then I roll and then no one. No one picks up the conversation and it just dies. Yes. You know, because there is a point where it's not going to change?
No. No, absolutely. Thank you both so much. And we're breaking up a little bit. So I think it might be because I'm not sure which end device will tear. But it's a shame. But what I wanted to do is make sure that because what you're doing is so important. And I know so many people, even you know, if we're only in the beginning of this journey ourselves, you know, we definitely don't want it in our houses, nobody's going to want to have that in their house and causing that pain to their kid. You know, and, and also, this is a nuanced journey. And for me, I could not have gone where I've got to in it, which is still not completely resolved without the help of people working in this space. And I think to find a pair of women in midlife working in this space in Australia is amazing. So could you please share what you do, what you're offering and where people can find you. Because I'm sure there'll be so much demand for what you do, because it's just, what amazing free freedom would come from not having to worry about the size and shape of our bodies and not having to worry about trying to be this ideal. That's, as you say, a completely kind of a made up thing anyway.
So we're fairly early on in our journey together. So we've got our podcast, which is called Life's too short to count amas, which comes out weekly. And you can get on our mailing list at MC isn't dot co. for that.
Oh, we have like, like you say it's a very nuanced base. So we're actually launching a sort of short course at the end of July. For so some of the real groundwork prior to probably launching into something like intuitive, really, culture and
also diet stories, too, because our behaviours don't come from nowhere. And they definitely, just from what we know. So actually trying to help people have that curious exploration of where am I and how am I as a rallying point for Okay, well, what why don't we do that sort of really, especially in the short course of this and for those who are really starting? Yeah,
just really getting right there at the beginning, so that when you are starting to try and enact some of those, there's new ways of being good, a really good database to work. But before that, so, you know, some of this stuff is actually like practical skills, like a planning sort of challenge. So trying to take some of those tools that have been used as weapons in a way by dieting and turn it back into the tools they're meant to be. So I love being sick when I'm with food. You know, when I do it, it works like time management and I'm pretty wasted. But we know that people get really sort of hung up with food with meal planning. So do at the
22nd year of the week that we're
gonna do our meal planning challenge along with us.
For them, what are their pain points on planning that leaves them feeling overwhelmed or stressed or throwing out food or as a last resort and feeling bad about it rather than build it in planning so I get that you might end up live about the same food but quite often, the approach and the way you've come to it can be really different. That impact on your stress levels and just life well being in general and things coming up. But if you just get on our mailing list they'll be able to find
We've got a couple of resources. We were the shader for a non diet weekend festival for a friend of ours. And we've catered in real life before, it's just quite hilarious. But we put our recipes down on paper. It's a bit of a mad sort of meandering journey, but you can get that at our website as Meg and Susan. Much appreciated you're doing great work. Thanks for tuning in to this week's episode of midlife AF with Emma Gilmore. If you enjoyed it, please share on Instagram for your friends and tag me at Haute rising coaching. If you want to help me grow the podcast please review the episodes for me on Apple podcast that really helps. If you would like to work further with me please go to my website www Haute rising coaching.com for my free and paid programs or email me at Emma at Holt rising coaching.com sending a massive cuddle to you and yours for me and mine and remember to keep choosing you
